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Saturday, May 20, 2017

Shared maternal ancestry between Slavs and Germanics probably dates to the Metal Ages


Over at the Russian Journal of Genetics behind a paywall at this LINK. Emphasis is mine:

Abstract: The structure and diversity of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) macrohaplogroup U lineages in Russians from Eastern Europe are studied on the basis of analysis of variation of nucleotide sequences of complete mitochondrial genomes. In total, 132 mitochondrial genomes belonging to haplogroups U1, U2e, U3, U4, U5, U7, U8a, and K are characterized. Results of phylogeographic analysis show that the mitochondrial gene pool of Russians contains mtDNA haplotypes belonging to subhaplogroups that are characteristic only of Russians and other Eastern Slavs (13.7%), Slavs in general (11.4%), Slavs and Germans (17.4%), and Slavs, Germans, and Baltic Finns (9.8%). Results of molecular dating show that ages of mtDNA subhaplogroups to which Russian mtDNA haplotypes belong vary in a wide range, from 600 to 17000 years. However, molecular dating results for Slavic and Slavic-Germanic mtDNA subhaplogroups demonstrate that their formation mainly occurred in the Bronze and Iron Ages (1000–5000 years ago). Only some instances (for subhaplogroups U5b1a1 and U5b1e1a) are characterized by a good agreement between molecular dating results and the chronology of Slavic ethnic history based on historical and archaeological data.

Malyarchuk, B.A., Derenko, M.V. & Litvinov, The macrohaplogroup U structure in Russians, A.N. Russ J Genet (2017) 53: 498. doi:10.1134/S1022795417020053

10 comments:

Samuel Andrews said...

Notice most U5a1 in Russia is U5a1a and U5a1b1. The same is true for all of Europe.

Neither U5a1a1 or U5a1b1 has been found in European hunter gatherers. Both first appear in Yamnaya and Corded Ware. 15% of Northern Bell Beaker folk had U5a1a or U5a1b1.

andrew said...

Based upon some comments Razib has made about the genetic makeup of Germans, it seems likely that many places that are now in the national boundaries of Germany (a country that didn't even exist until 1870), a population genetically Slavic, while others are decidedly not. My guess would be that there is a lot of geographic structure in the German-Slavic mtDNA clade distribution.

Of course, that doesn't detract from the striking point that the shared haplogroups don't date to the Mesolithic or Neolithic eras, which suggests metal age replacement of the female population, as opposed the a male dominated expansion that incorporated local wives.

jv said...

H6a might be considered in this category also. Expanded during the CWC and considered Slavic in and academic paper( along with H5)

Fanty said...

"it seems likely that many places that are now in the national boundaries of Germany (a country that didn't even exist until 1870), a population genetically Slavic, while others are decidedly not."

Thats possibly not really a region anymore.

I guess, the most slavic Germans are Germans from the "Eastern terretories", wich are now Poland or Russia (East Prussia). From the from 80 million Germans, 11 million originate in those terretories and went to all over modern Germany after the war and mixed with western Germans meanwhile.

I recall, when David still printed all the people out, Germans from these regions clusted like halfway between the other Germans and Poland. Or technically the closest to GErman corded ware (but still more west of those, but closer than anyone else).

Couple people who have one Polish and one German parent, fell close to those Germans aswell.

And I think thats what David dubbed "East German". Not GErmans from what is NOW the east of GErmany, but what was once the east of Germany.

Davidski said...

Based upon some comments Razib has made about the genetic makeup of Germans, it seems likely that many places that are now in the national boundaries of Germany (a country that didn't even exist until 1870), a population genetically Slavic, while others are decidedly not. My guess would be that there is a lot of geographic structure in the German-Slavic mtDNA clade distribution.

Germanic in this paper doesn't just mean German. In other words, the shared Slavic/Germanic U subclades are not those that are shared by some Slavs and Germans, but by Slavs and Germanics by and large.

Antoni Małkowski said...

Tu
http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,408368,migracje-ludnosci-sprzed-1500-lat-wplynely-na-ksztalt-wspolczesnej-europy.html?utm_source=Histmag.org&utm_medium=article-12748

bardzo ciekawa teza
W sukurs wnioskom prof. Michałowskiego idą ustalenia zespołu naukowców w ramach projektu badawczego „Okres Wędrówek Ludów w dorzeczu Odry i Wisły” kierowanego przez prof. Aleksandra Bursche. Ustalono, że w połowie I tysiąclecia na obszarze pomiędzy Odrą a Wisłą nie nastąpił całkowity zanik osadnictwa. Zdaniem tego zespołu badawczego ludność o tradycjach germańskich, która była obecna na terenach obecnej Polski w czasie okresu wędrówek ludów, zasymilowała się ze Słowianami.

Pommer said...

It is a fact that Slavs hate her germanic root and a polish blog is not very neutral. The western slavs have here roots in east germanic tribes, they have the same traditions. In the bronze age is no place what say "here was a other speaker culture". They spoken the same language and that is the greatest language family of middle europe. That is the eurovision songcontest in genetic color variation. Zero Points for germany.

Davidski said...

Wow, you actually managed to get Eurovision songcontest into your comment.

Pommer said...

Yeah great, that is creativity. Wait of the point when the russian peoples write the Polish yDNA is the same like Germans. All M458, Z280 and Z284 was germans. Welcome in the real history.

Antoni Małkowski said...

Dla mnie to duże zaskoczenie bliskość Słowian zachodnich do kultura wielbarskiej i przworskieji.

http://www.academia.edu/31352855/Piontek_2016_Ludno%C5%9B%C4%87_dorzecza_Odry_i_Wisly_od_p%C3%B3%C5%BAnej_starozytnosci.



W latach 1970ych archeolodzy i antropolodzy twierdzili że największy zmiany w ludności na terenie Polski zaszły od 10 do 13 wieku {pamiętam ten program telewizyjny}.